Hannah

In today’s episode, I’m joined by Donna Johnston and we are talking about how leadership development is changing. Donna, welcome.

00:11 Donna

Hello. Thank you.

00:13 Hannah

Donna, could you start us off by just giving us a potted history of your career to date?

00:20 Donna

Yeah, absolutely. So I started at HSBC many, many years ago working in the branch network, counting cash and encounter. How long ago that was and then moved through various parts of HSBC.

00:34 Donna

Then I joined professional services. Where was that for many years? Well over a decade. Then from there I moved into tobacco industry, then into the food industry. And then I went back. So various different organisations, in various different roles, mainly in talent and learning in the last 20 years.

00:59 Hannah

Yeah. Fantastic.

01:01 Hannah

And how has (I know Big question). We’ll start broad and then we’ll narrow down. But how has leadership development changed in the last 20 years?

01:12 Donna

I think elements have it. I think if we look back to 20 years ago, it was very much get people in the classroom. Let’s take them away from the office for 2-3 weeks and let’s tell them how to be good leaders. I think what’s changed now is that with technology the speed of change. It’s not just looking at the technical ability, but it’s also looking at what’s more of a whole person.

01:40 Donna

And I think also it’s very much focusing on well, the way I look at it, is that leadership development is not just about sitting in the classroom, it’s about how does leadership development drive the performance of  the organisation. So for me, every time we’re talking about leadership development, we should be talking about organisational performance. On how we’re moving the needle on our strategy. So what does that look like in terms of our Leadership?

02:06 Donna

I think the other piece that comes into it into it as well is diversity, if you think about the number of generations we’ve got in the organisation, I think it’s the first time we’ve probably had what 5 generations in an organisation. How do we deal with all of that need? That comes through being diverse through being inclusive. So I think the old, traditional way of what was 20 years ago of a leadership development that I went through, for example, is completely different. And then also if we think about Talent. What do we mean by talent? Are we saying just a selected few with talent? No. Are we saying everybody’s talent? So again, I think even some of the words that we use around talent is changing and also I think the other focus is speed. Our world has speeded up due to technology, so how do we really think about learning through the lens of speed to competence, and what do we mean by speed of competence? you can no longer wait six months to get up to speed in a new job for example.

03:10 Donna

So how do we really increase? How do we help people move faster in one of our business, but it should always be linked to performance.

03:19 Hannah

Hmm, absolutely. I really like that link to organisational performance organisational outcomes because if it doesn’t actually impact on that. It’s almost like, well, what’s the point in doing it?

03:35 Donna

What’s the point? Well, it’s like we’ve learned development, isn’t it? If it if it’s not seen as a commercial part of the business, then what’s the point? Because for me it should be. It should be about driving impacting outcomes. I mean, if I think of some of the leadership development that I was doing 15 years ago. We’re asking them to work on a business problem and call it with recommendations. Yeah, to, change the performance in the organisation.

04:03 Hannah

Yeah, yeah.

04:04 Donna

So I was looking about 15 years ago when I think about some of the leadership development I did in my first manager role, I was sent off site to a really beautiful university doing a treasure hunt in the cold. What is that to do with performance?

04:21

Yeah.

04:21 Donna

So for me it’s all about how moving the dial if you like and always linking it back to performance.

04:29 Hannah

I also think your comment there on talent, you know what is talent? Is it a small select few high potential talent or is it everyone. What’s the answer, do you think to that question?

04:44 Donna

I think I think it depends on how you look at it, because I think, say for example, there’s a particular and this is where skills comes in as well, right? Because if you know that within your organisation that you’ve got your three-year plan or five year plan and you know what organisational capability you need to shift your organisation over that period of time.

05:04 Donna

Fine. You then look, then you’re looking. Then further down and thinking. Actually, do we have that skill set for the organisation or going to buy a team? Are we going to upskill people? There’s also that piece that’s linking back into your question about talent is do you have good succession planning for those key roles that make for a big difference in your organisation?

05:24 Donna

Do you define that as talent, or do you think right? I’m gonna have a skills based organisation where we’re moving the skill set right across the organisation because we’re looking three to five years ahead. Yeah, with the skills. So we’re moving the needle that way. So I think it all depends on how you look at talent and how you define it.

05:37 Hannah

Yeah. It’s the answer both?

05:45 Donna

Yes.

05:45 Hannah

Yeah, You need to do both of those things, yeah, interesting.

05:47 Donna

Yes.

05:50 Hannah

You talked about speed as being I guess a challenge of today. The speed at which we need to learn, onboard, develop. What would you say are the other kind of biggest challenges facing leaders and leadership development teams today?

06:11 Donna                                                  

Complexity I think if you look at the world that we live in today is very complex. I think if you think about the way that we might have communicated or marketed five years ago is different today, right? Umm, if you look at the new generation of leaders that coming in, how they expect everything quite rightly so up to at the fingertips. If you think about social media, it’s all there, it’s available if you’re thinking about learning leadership development skills, It should be fair, easily accessible over time of need. Yeah, in a simple, simple and pragmatic way. Otherwise you do what I do. Just go look on YouTube or Google.

06:51 Hannah

Yeah. The thing that is accessible.

07:06 Donna

So the way that we do business in development with leadership development or wherever it may be, is changing and I’m not sure that L&D has caught up with where it needs to be.

07:13 Hannah

Interesting. So how do we solve for that?

07:18 Donna

I think there’s various elements of it, I think delivering what we’ve already got is not going to work anymore. Yeah, I think if we look at the old competency models, it’s a tick in the box like we do that we tick it. We’ve achieved what we want. No, we haven’t. It’s like if you put learning development on a desert island and it still survives with no oxygen, you need to be asking yourself some serious questions, right?

07:39

Yeah, yeah.

07:41 Donna

I mean, for me it’s about how are we driving those skills. I think you can no longer just think about having an LXP and it will meet your need course, you won’t. It’s about what are the different types of technology and how are you really driving AI enablement? So what I mean by that is if I’m wanting to do leadership development, I want it personalised again. What my skill say is what I’ve got today, whether it’s that using adaptive learning to ask me questions, to personalise it, whatever it may be.

08:04 Hannah

Yes, yes.

08:14 Donna

I want learn and it’s personalised. It’s going to move the needle for me to for my own self I want to be able to self-serve myself to look at the skills that I need to be. I want to be able to look at across the organisation to see what other roles are going, what skills I need to meet to be able to get to that. What are the people and leadership skills that I need. Yeah. So for me, it’s about being really clear about your leadership architecture in your organisation as well.

08:42 Donna

And also is a piece of me about how do I self-serve because I want everything at my fingertips, but there’s also that piece of if we’re looking at the digitally, what do we want our leaders to be in our organisation and what does that look and feel like. So I think there’s a, the the top down, but it’s also that bottom up piece as well.

09:02 Hannah

Absolutely. Personalization is a word I’m hearing more and more and more and more. I think it’s well, we expect it in our everyday lives as consumers. When we’re on our phones, on social media, etcetera, etcetera, we’re so used to life being personalised for us. So yeah, we absolutely expect that in our working world as well and our development activities.

09:31 Hannah

How far away are most organisations from being personalised in terms of their offering?

09:39 Donna

I think it depends on what are they looking technology in the right way. For me, because I I think that the old world of the big LMS’s and the big LXP’s, it’s no longer hitting the mark anymore, is it? I think that it to me, I think the future is probably gonna be lots of technology.

09:59 Donna

 Or Working with organisations to see you as a strategic partner. Yeah. So, for example, if I look at the some of the LXP’s that I’ve seen organisation, we don’t personalise it for our workforce. For what we’re trying to drive. And so for me, I think I think AI is that one of the most amazing things that’s coming in because by using that using the technology that’s there, it’s going to understand people’s personal styles and what they’re interested in. Because going to remember. It’s that kind of piece that’s really going to drive the personalisation of learning and I think that there’s some organisations are a long way from it.

10:40 Hannah

Agree.

10:41 Hannah

It’s interesting what you say there around the future probably isn’t one piece of technology that says it’s got the bells and whistles, and I wonder actually, if a lot of organisations still think that that could be possible and then maybe searching for a bit of a Unicorn in that respect. And the reality is that the future is probably going to be plugging together different pieces of technology that all do different things to then ensure you have got genuine personalisation.

11:14 Donna

If we give you another example, Hannah, if we think about, I think that’s with the organisations I’ve worked in and I look a lot. I look at a lot of LXPs it doesn’t even take learning content from other providers and translator. So if I’m setting a market in Timbuktu what’s the point in me only having learning in English? We we now have. We know that we’ve got the technology that can accurately translate learning with 98% accuracy. Why are we not integrating some of that?

11:35 Hannah

Yeah.

To me that is one simple element of where you’re able to meet everybody’s need in all different parts of the world. and make it Accessible.

11:55 Hannah

Absolutely. Yes, 100%.

11:59 Hannah

What’s your view on AI coaching?

12:06 Donna

It’s quite interesting because when I did my PhD I worked with somebody that did a whole really interesting did a whole study on AI coaching. and if there was a difference between that and personalised coaching.

12:24 Hannah

And what did they find?

12:25 Donna

It was really fascinating. What became evident is that people went to a point that they would share certain personal information because they felt safe to do so. But then it would only go to a point.

12:38 Donna

You didn’t get that connection with the AI so.

12:43 Donna

You didn’t get that deep connection of what you get with the person.

12:47 Hannah

Interesting.

12:47 Donna

So that was quite interesting. So I think for me, I think AI coaching absolutely has a point. So I wonder and again I’m thinking out loud here when we’re using AI coaching, do we say that we offer that to everybody?

13:04 Donna

In an organisation, for example, so everybody feels that they’ve got access to something, if it’s intelligent enough and then and it learns and it adapts because the information it’s taken in, it remembers and it and it and so and then do we say you have other types of coaching, personalised coaching for other elements in the organisation.

13:08 Hannah

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

13:25 Donna

With for its particular types of developing talent, depending on what you call talent or whatever, it may be. So I think it’s absolutely got a role and I think we can be really selective how we use it.

13:40 Hannah

Absolutely. So the two things can kind of complement each other.

Do you think it’s possible to use Person coaching and AI coaching together within the same programme. So for example, you might start off with an AI and then move to a person once you got to a certain level. Or maybe it reduces the need to meet with the person so regularly and you do a bit of AI in the middle. Do you think it’s possible to mix the two methodologies in that way?

14:13 Donna

Absolutely. Because I think eventually, is there gonna be a lot of difference between AI coaching and a Bot?

14:23 Donna

Because there’s bots that are becoming more intelligent. It’s going to be there and available anyway Isn’t it?.

14:30 Hannah

Yeah, absolutely interesting. And we’ve talked a bit about technology. What about assessment? How does assessment play into leadership development?

14:44 Donna

Ohh it’s critical.

14:46 Donna

I think it’s critical for everybody, because I’m just thinking, I guess where I’ve used Saville or whichever organisations you if you know what it’s. So for me, I guess I’m thinking what I like particularly about Saville is when you do the 360. And I know that gives you a snapshot in time, but it gives you some really rich data to work with. And what I like about Saville is the fact that you can overlay.

15:12 Hannah

Yeah.

15:19 Donna

For personality element of it, yeah. And what I really like is I always bring right into coaching, executive coaching because actually somebody’s getting feedback in a particular area.

15:30 Donna

Yeah, but it’s a sticky point in the personality and it and the personality doesn’t naturally gravitate towards that. Are you gonna focus on that development area if it’s going to take a lot more out of that person from an energetic perspective? or you’re going to move the needle on the area where they are really good at performing and it matches their personality and you getting it to 50%, yeah, rather than the 5% on the development area. So for me, I really like the fact that you can overlay the personality and the preferences with people’s perceptions. Yeah, because I think that brings a real richness. And then when you’re embedding that into coaching and then you can go back and do another assessment whether it’s nine months, year later, wherever you choose to do it, you can start to see the growth in that person? I think the other element is if we’re thinking about graduates.

16:29 Donna

The coaching report It’s so easy. It’s scalable, yes, but it it’s it’s bringing it alive for graduates at that level. Absolutely. So I think there’s so many different tools out there. I think it’s making sure that we’re using the right tool for the right thing at the right time.

16:37

It’s really. Simple, isn’t it?

16:37 Hannah

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

16:52 Donna

So yes, I think it does and do you know what, Hannah, I think anything that raises that level of self-awareness can only be a good thing, right.

16:58 Hannah

Yes. Ohh 100% couldn’t agree more, Donna.

17:09 Hannah

We both know that not all assessments are created equal.

What do you think talent teams sometimes get wrong when choosing assessment or using assessment?

17:18 Donna

I think sometimes the complexity. for me. How do you align it with your organisation? So for me it’s each organisation have different behaviours or different values whatever. Whatever they choose to use. Are they making sure it’s the right tool that’s able to do that?

17:27 Hannah

Yeah. And kind of walk and talk that organisational language, yeah.

17:42 Donna

Absolutely, absolutely.

17:44 Donna

Otherwise. It’s just another assessment. What’s the point? Where is it adding value to me and my role?

17:51 Hannah

People just don’t engage with it.

17:52 Donna

Absolutely. I mean, I’ve done so many assessments over the years and it’s great when you have your session, you say, oh, you have that good information. I don’t pick it up again. However, if he’s looking at my potential in your organisation. So for example, what we’ve done with your tool many times over is look what are the people skills or the leadership skills or the business skills or whatever we may be and how do we translate that into the into the personal into personalisation report. So for me, I think the key thing that a lot of people don’t do. They. Don’t personalise it to the organisation and it becomes just another tool.

18:34 Hannah

Yeah.

18:35 Donna

That you might not, great when you get it, but how am I really embedding that?

18:40 Donna

How am I thinking about that differently? How am I integrating that into my career? How am I integrating that into my role? How am I integrating that into me as a leader of people? Yeah.

18:52 Hannah

So it’s actually by making sure you link the tool that you’re using and map it back to your or your own organisational frameworks. Actually what that does is it helps people get that. So what? Yeah, it’s link helps people link back to business performance, organisational outcomes, those sorts of things. Yeah. Yeah. And then and therefore you get better return on investment. Yeah, absolutely.

19:26 Hannah

Donna, skills, we’ve mentioned them a little bit, but I quite like to just dive into that a little bit more.

19:35 Hannah

Skills, I think has become a really hot topic over the last few years. Lots and lots of organisations are pivoting to skills. What does this mean at leadership level?

19:49 Donna

So I think for me and this is quite interesting, isn’t it, because I’ve been to quite a few conferences.

19:55 Donna

Where there’s been people from HR and we talked about skills, but we actually mean competencies. So what we’re trying to do is talk about skills.

20:04 Donna

And then and then we were talking about competencies, two different things. I know, competency frameworks don’t work. We’ve been talking about competency frameworks forever. Do you see the media, whether moving organisation, absolutely not. So I think for me, when I’m when I’m thinking about skills and I’m thinking about leadership skills.

20:17 Hannah

Yeah.

20:25 Donna

I think for me it we’re thinking about the organisation. We need to be really clear.

20:29 Donna

What’s the leadership architecture? So what are the levels that we’re going after and why and what’s the impact that’s going to have? Then there’s a piece for me is where we’re being really clear about what those skills mean for each leadership.

20:45 Hannah

Level and is that what they look like in terms of.

20:47 Donna

Absolutely. You would observe. Absolutely. Are you wanting me to be an agile leader for?

20:48 Hannah

What?

20:53 Donna

Yeah, yeah. But and again, it should be linked into where the organisation is wanting to go. Yeah. So when I’ve looked at skills before, wherever I’ve been and to think, competence is to be fair. What does that look like three to five years ahead? Yeah. Because you should be using those skills to drive the culture and to drive the skills that in the organisation. But it also gives you an idea of do I need to buy it in? Mm-hmm. But. And it’s also making, or do I am I developing people? But again, if we’re looking at key skills back to the assessment piece. They should start with TA.

21:33 Donna

You’re looking at the telling element of it. You’re looking at the development area of it, so for me it’s that whole end to end IP. I don’t think you can look at it in silence. So if you’re looking at leadership skills, I think it’s it’s really clear about what that looks like across your leadership architecture. Yeah, with it’s 3 levels.

21:53 Donna

All levels, whatever you choose to be and then also I think for me it’s not looking at every skill for everything because it becomes another animal and competencies, for me is looking against clusters of roles within that leadership architecture. Not every role cause roles are changing all the time. So let’s be pragmatic and real about it. Yeah, it’s also what are the key non negotiable skills that you’re trying to drive in the organisation, not.

22:13 Hannah

Yeah.

22:23 Donna

Every skill for every role. And why you’re getting another tick in the box. Exercise. Yeah. For me. It’s whatever roles are driving your organisation. Whatever. Non negotiable skills that are in those roles. That’s going to drive for your organisation. Yeah. And then for me, if we’re thinking of Leadership skills is what learning then sits on the back of that.

22:44 Hannah

Skill. Yes, indeed. So what impact does this pivot to skills? I guess if any have on leadership development activity.

22:53 Hannah

Again, so thinking about skills and a lot of organisations pivoting to skills, does that have an impact on Leadership development? What does look like?

23:03 Donna

And what’s that? Because if you’ve not defined what skills You want in your organisation for your leadership population and how do you where’s your benchmark? How do you know what good looks like? How do you know where you want to shift the organisation? How do you know what a good leader looks like? Hmm. You know, I think again, if we think about L&D.

23:28 Donna

You talk about it with this, really great Language, HR language. What does that mean in business terms and and and at that? So that’s where we need to be really focusing on. So what are what skills are going to drive the performance in the organisation for our leaders, that’s a conversation we should be having.

23:49 Hannah

Absolutely. And I wonder if the one of the reasons skills has become so popular is because just the language is. It’s so much simpler than competencies.

24:00 Donna

Ohh absolutely. And actually if I’m all skilling myself and I’m owning my own development and I’m owning my own learning, which is what a lot for generations are now doing because I’ve had everything it touched.

24:16 Donna

Can you imagine how powerful that can be if you’ve got the right learning it gives the right skill at the right time. When I want to skill.

24:22 Hannah

Myself, yes, absolutely, absolutely. And I wonder if that also links to, you touched on it briefly. This idea of systemic HR and need to break down silos and it again having lots of conversations on this at the moment, I feel there’s a real desire in many places to to break down those silos for talent acquisition.

24:48 Hannah

Start working much more closely with talent development, sharing data. I think what tends to happen is it’s a talent acquisition gathers all this lovely assessment data as an example during recruitment and then it just sits there and imagine the value that could be squeezed out of it if actually it was then picked up for onboarding, talent development etcetera, etcetera.

25:10 Donna

And I wonder, and I’m thinking out loud here. Now I wonder if some of that fits into your AI platform that you’ve got where you’re talking about teens. Yeah. If all of that data is fed into there. Yeah. You start to get a real nice picture of your organisation.

25:28 Donna

Yeah. And that’s when you can start looking at work rolls reports for example. So I think that if people start because when I when I think about what every time I’ve I’ve brought you into which organisations I’m in, it’s always been looking at it holistically. How does it all fit in because for me, you should be looking at the whole employee life cycle? Yeah, not just a small element of it. Yeah. Otherwise it becomes like any other report that, that, that. We’ll just do it when you join. you’re good fit. But actually what’s the ongoing development and where is your organisational shifting? If you brought in new behaviours or values.

25:54 Hannah

Yeah.

26:07 Donna

That is, is that of is still potential development of you’re looking at absolutely.

26:12 Hannah

How does that change? Yeah. What do you think are the biggest blockers to organisations achieving that sort of systemic HR model?

26:25 Donna

I think there’s, I think there’s various various elements to this. I think some of that is because people are so busy. It’s very easy to to stick to your silos. I think that’s an element of it. I think another piece is technology and how and having the access to that information.

26:44 Donna

I think the other piece is that people might now I think some of it is education. And then I think view of view of the pieces is there’s always that piece of if you share with me the impact and outcomes and what good looks like if everything joined together, yeah.

27:03 Donna

I think people will be much more on board cause you understand.

27:07 Hannah

Yeah.

27:07 Donna

Yes, I think some of it is around that communication and people genuinely not knowing and the technology and being able to do it at speed.

27:15 Hannah

It falls down the priority list because people are too busy the technology, I think is a really interesting one because I think that can sometimes feel like the hardest part and I wonder whether or what your view would be on how good generally our HR folk are really pushing Tech hard and working through those difficult problems to get bits of technology integrated and working together. Or do you think it’s often maybe goes into the too difficult box where it Shouldn’t?

27:56 Donna

I think it elements of that, yes, but also how many organisations? A lot of the organisations I’ve worked in, it’s like, well this HR Las will fix everything.

28:09 Donna

Yes. So they, you buy this big HR a system but looks at HR.

28:15 Donna

Looks at TA. Looks at learning.

28:18 Donna

But it’s not great. Everything it gives you the the bare minimum in in my view, and this is where I was back to earlier is it’s probably more pieces of technology, but thinking how it all links together.

28:22 Hannah

Yes. so find the bits of technology that are brilliant. Yeah, doing the thing that they do, absolutely. And then link it all up. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

28:37 Donna

Thanks.

28:47 Hannah

Donna, what would be your three top tips for anyone working in leadership development today?

28:55 Donna

Three top tips. I mean, for me, I think it’s really trying to think about if you and this is just some of the areas that I’ve been thinking about is if there’s a gap in your organisation or that needs to be filled a problem statement, a challenge, whatever you want to call it.

29:12 Hannah

Yeah.

29:18 Donna

Why would you not have your leadership development focused on some of That?

29:22 Donna

To look at how you fix some of that problem, or if there’s an area you’re wanting to grow, reorganisation, whatever it may be, why would you not have what you call your talent or your leadership looking at that so that you’re really bringing it alive? So it’s really linked into that performance.

29:38 Hannah

Yeah.

29:38 Donna

That would be one of the areas.

29:40 Hannah

And solving real learning by solving real.

29:42 Donna

The proper business problem that will be the first thing.

29:43 Hannah

Problems.

29:44 Hannah

Yeah.

29:46 Donna

The second thing I would is being really clear about what your architectures of leadership. So how is Britain? Your what does leadership mean in your organisation? Mm-hmm. What are what are the levels? Whatever it may be, what does that look like?

30:00 Hannah

So it’s setting expectation.

30:01 Donna

Absolutely, yeah. And then the third piece would be for me and this is where your skills and the assessment comes together. Because for me it’s been really clear. What do you mean by a leader in your organisation? What the skills that would go against that. How does your behaviours or values feed into the assessment? And then how do you know that you’re moving the needle? Because that is through the assessments Right. And I think the other piece may, if it feeds through all of that.

30:32 Donna

That is moving away from this old fashioned model that would take everybody out, and then we’re gonna have 10 days of intensive learning and they’re gonna walk out that door and they’ve been going to become these amazing leaders. It’s not gonna work. So for me, it’s it’s looking at a longer term journey. It might be that you have a leadership journey.

30:43 Hannah

Changed people, yeah.

30:52 Donna

Last 18 months or two years or whatever it may be, it might be you take twice of it. Exactly. So I think it’s been open.

30:57 Hannah

Or maybe even longer.

31:03 Donna

And thinking what could that possibly look like? And maybe maybe that it’s actually the learning that decides how long that Is.

31:12 Hannah

Yeah, indeed. And in fact, you said at the very beginning.

31:17 Hannah

Some of your own leadership development experiences 20 years ago where you were doing treasure hunts in a field which perhaps didn’t feel like it had as good an impact as some of the stuff that would be done now.

31:34 Hannah

I wonder actually if that if that is all you’ve ever done a bit of leadership development 20 years ago doing a treasure hunt in a field.

31:42 Hannah

How? Why not carry on and continuously learn and develop? Do do the things now that we know work. But then in 10 years time it might look very different.

31:56 Hannah

Is there something there around that continuous learning piece?

31:59 Donna

Absolutely. But aren’t we learning every day I’m learning this moment from you, right?

32:04 Hannah

And me from you.

32:07 Donna

You know we’re learning all the time, I think it’s been, it’s been really clear and concise and choice full and purposeful about what do we mean by leadership in this organisation and what does that look like? And I and I think some of that as well.

32:24 Donna

My view it before you even start to look at leadership development. It’s about understanding from leaders on the ground. What does it mean to them?

32:34 Donna

And really aligning what you’re looking at so you’re really understanding what that problem statement is, yeah, and what the goal is, what does good look like in terms of the impacting outcomes and what’s the solution, what what’s the problem you’re trying to solve, if you like.

32:46 Hannah

Yeah.

32:50 Donna

So for me that is where you should where the focus should be. So it’s really driving that performance, not just creating something for five days cause it looks.

32:58 Hannah

Good. Yeah, absolutely. I’m just gonna summarise your three top tips there cause I feel like I took us off on a bit of a tangent at the end.

33:08 Hannah

So number One, if there’s a gap to fill a problem to solve, why not use that as part of leadership development and get folks on a programme to have a look and try and solve that problem. Secondly, get your architecture right. Looking at different levels. What does that look like, what’s required? And then there’s that third bit around, making sure you have that benchmark of in terms of moving the needle. Have I summarised that fairly?

33:35 Donna

Absolutely.

33:37 Hannah

Donna, it’s been an absolute pleasure, as always. Thank you so much for joining us.

33:42 Donna

Thank you.